Bill Patton: Brain Work
0:00:00.1 Jack Broudy: We welcome tennis nuts out there. Welcome to living at the 45. I'm glad you made it. Today, I am happy to be talking with a new friend of mine, but we are having such a good time, his name is AJ caria, and he's played tennis and covered coach tennis tennis events all around the world. He's had an extensive career, 25 years as a head pro and some great clubs in California, in Texas. He's a contributing editor, tennis player, dot net. He hosts a great podcast, which I subscribe to, I think it's great, it's called at the net podcast, and he talks to all kinds of great tennis players just like... And tennis icons like we do here at living at the 45, and he's worked with everyone from blonde to Venus to Mac and roll, and just a heavily, heavily involved tennis guy. I don't know what your background as far as playing as much, but I do know you've done a lot of events and you've done a lot of coaching and heavily involved in that, and I'm gonna have to ask you about a couple of your hobbies, like stand-up 'cause that really interests me.
0:01:13.1 Jack Broudy: And AJ, Chandra, please say hi to everyone who's living at the 45 here
0:01:20.2 Bill Patton: Hello. It's such a warm welcome. Jack, thank you so much. I love live into the 45 as a TV show, but also as a podcast and is kind of a way of life, I love hitting the ball still, and I love getting in the intuitive, beautiful figure, a style of stroke that you espouse. I'm big on that, man, so the pleas to be a thank you, Jack.
0:01:46.0 Jack Broudy: When you've done your homework, if you know about the figure eight and 45, you've done a little your homework there, which is great, and I've done the same on you and... Yeah, I got lots of questions for you, so let's get it started with Dr. That first question I gotta ask before I get diverted into a bunch of tennis, giroud... We could just go on forever. So your hobbies. Okay, so I have a similar hobby, music's a big hobby of mine, and I'm a foodie and a wine maybe, but stand-up, does it mean you like watching a stand-up or does it mean you actually have the webOS to get up and stand up and do a comedy, I gotta ask.
0:02:29.6 Bill Patton: I haven't done stand-up in 27 years, and I must have been... I didn't really love it, like I loved sketch comedy, and the improv classes that I took when I lived in San Francisco, Berkeley, Marin County back in the 90s, back then, when I did stand up, it was... You gotta have wave us to get up there. It's 18 other comics trying to get better and better and better, they're all drunk and depressed, and I wasn't huge on the scene, even though I was an avid fan of some of the guys who are going on right after me... Right before me or something. So I wasn't super into it. After a pretty darn good career and a fun career as a Director of tennis at a club out there, and then here in Texas, I was asked and see a couple of bands, a... Almost like an open mic. And then after the open mic and after this thing, this basically a tap room at a brewery got bigger and better, bigger, and the crowds went from 15-20 people, which is what I was used to, or maybe speaking at a conference, I'm used to 100 or something.
0:03:46.9 Bill Patton: It has grown tripled in the past few months, and one night it became Hey, after the open mic bands, can you MC please the two real bands on the two established touring musicians and in between, while one band takes down and the other sets up, you think you can do five minutes. Monologue, stand-up something is like, Man, I haven't done any of this. And by the way, this is on a Friday night, they asked me to do this, the stand-up part, not the Ming part, that was well, a plane... They gave me about eight hours notice, so I think from the podcast, I have some bits that we've never used and we probably won't, so I have some stuff written because you can't just get up there and do impressions, I can do voices and accents or whatever, but is that really that funny? It's funny with my friend. My wife, right, right. Conversational. Yeah, so I had something written and then I don't wanna say I crammed or scrambled, but I wrote a few other things I read, I rehearsed in the car on the way up, and boom, I did it for eight minutes and it was really fun, and they have asked, I guess it was decent enough to where they've asked me back, so I've gone five, six times up in a row, and I would consider it a hobby now...
0:05:08.4 Bill Patton: Yeah, just to do it and I don't get paid for it. I get paid in food and beer and whatever, it's just laid back and fun.
0:05:17.2 Jack Broudy: That's classic. That is classic. And that really brings me back to college days, not basically, yeah. I mean, you had funny guys in college, but you just don't think to go stand up, and it sounds like all the fun tennis beer drinking days is What primed you for your career.
0:05:37.7 Bill Patton: Maybe all that helped more than I thought in her.
0:05:42.1 Jack Broudy: She, it's funny when you were talking, it really reminded me of a Grateful Dead show I saw back, I don't know, 1979 or something, 80. And they brought on... The same thing in the beginning of the show. In the middle of the show, I think it was a New Year's Eve show. Are they brought on Franken and Davis? Do you remember Al Franken? Before he went into politics, Francona Davis.
0:06:03.7 Bill Patton: Absolutely Franklin. This was probably his SNL day.
0:06:07.9 Jack Broudy: 70 a correction was classic and... Yeah, what a duo. Yeah, they were really funny and... Yeah, that's great. So it started there. So what's more nerve-racking playing college tennis or stand-up comic...
0:06:29.4 Bill Patton: The level of tennis that I played tennis, which was one of the smaller division 1 colleges, we maybe have 30-40 people watching on a good day, I didn't see that as nerve-racking, I saw stand up in grad school in my early mid-20s, I saw that as a nerve-racking. I see this as Caledonian and easy, and it's natural 'cause I'm up there in a mein anyway, and to get an extra eight minutes and make too pelage and express some of my opinions and maybe a turn of phrase or a voice, or a hot take or a controversial opinion that I may not say with friends, because maybe there's somebody who would think, Oh, that guy is offensively, you know what, it's a bloody comedy, I'm gonna do it, we're gonna laugh, and it's under the guys of playing a character up there, it's not actually me so for that reason, I talk to myself out of an art... Let's be honest, any match, even if it's only a few people watching, it's a nerve wracking, you gotta use the nerves, right, you got a new tapes Ure.
0:07:43.8 Jack Broudy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're right, I guess, and I was the same. I played tennis for a couple of... Chapel Hill was a bigger school. But Athens, you're playing money, keep your scholarship, that takes a huge level of pressure off and you're right, tennis, college tennis was about the most fun I've ever had in my life, it was really... It was an incredibly good time.
0:08:10.1 Bill Patton: It was a blast, and you're not... At the time, I certainly wasn't smart enough to understand that, Oh, I might lose the scholarship if I don't play well, it wasn't in my brain, it was more just, we're out here, we're having fun, we're competing, I guess to play number one or two, double number one singles for this college and where the colors, and we get a little bit of free gear and I'm just out there flowing and the mom and the masses done, I'm gonna have fun and then I'll go study and it's just... I agree, method. I should tell you I was 17 when I was a freshman in college. I graduated a little bit early from high school, so I was even dumber and less mature, and I think that actually helped, I would say probably freshman and freshman year I was weirdly successful at number one, I think it's just 'cause you're flowing and you don't know, and what if we could put that in a bottle and play tennis like that at 50... 60 or whatever, 70.
0:09:10.9 Jack Broudy: Well, that's true. Young and dumb. I never saw it as a negative term, they don't use it anymore today, 'cause you probably get sued or arrested or something, but... No. Right. Or cancel, which I really don't care about. It's impossible. I'm closer to dead than cancelled. I don't give a shit. But it's true. Yeah, I think young and dumb, that's why guys like Alka has come out or bored or Chrissy Evert, they're too young and dumb to even realize that there's expectations of them, it's like, Hey, I'm just wailing, I'm just king of the... I'm king of the hill and king of the world, as they say, and you just feel that kind of exuberance and energy and positivity that only a young and dumb person could see, 'cause as you get older and get beaten up here and there, then you start to be more careful then you start to worry about this or worry about your reputation or... You know what I mean? Life starts to hammer on you a bit, and I think... You do see these photos for a packer, you see these genomes when they're young, and then after they've hit their stride, right when they're young, and then all of a sudden reality sets in and then they dropped to two or three, and people can deal with them, but it's really hard to deal with unabashed and the ignorance that it brings with it...
0:10:38.9 Jack Broudy: You know what I mean?
0:10:40.3 Bill Patton: Love it, love it. Absolutely, right.
0:10:44.2 Jack Broudy: So tell me more, it seems to me, from what I've studied, you really have spent your life promoting the game, I would say as much as anything else, like you say, if they look you up on the ATP tour, just like me, they ain't gonna find us, and no, I didn't think I... Wei was fortunate, I coached tennis a few good players, so that didn't hurt, and it didn't hurt that I was in Southern Cal where there's... You can't swing a dead cat without handing a good tennis player. But I'm the same way now, I really wanna give back to the game. That's the impression I get sort of getting involved in your world the last couple of months here, is that promoting the game and bringing more people into the game, and just, I guess your expression of how much you love the game, I don't know how else to put it really...
0:11:41.1 Bill Patton: Yeah, I've never... Not loved the game, I've had an injury, I've taken some time off it, but I like how you said it, the expression of how much we love the sport, and I would say just sports in general. So one question I might ask you, if I can turn it around on you is, and I'm happy to answer this as well, is what is it about tennis that we love so much and that we just gotta share?
0:12:09.2 Jack Broudy: I think for me, it would have to be in singles, it would have to be the feeling that you have overcome your own personal limitations, your own emotions, and you wanna match where you were down 5-2 in the third... Those are the ones I remember. I still remember high school matches that I was down 5-2 in the third, and I remember one, I was playing number one on the high school team, and it's really weird, I go back to... I call haven't thought about this match in 40 years, but it started snowing, and it was in Connecticut, he was in April, it was like April 1st or second, and it was snowing and it was down 5 2 in the third... And I saved a couple of match points and it starts snowing and as a young and dumb kid, I say, Oh, this is a sign from God, I'm gonna win this match, and... Sure shit, I came back. I won 7-5 and the third. And it's happened a few times in my life. I've had a decent win here in there, and it was always such a good feeling, like You know what, I overcame my own personal limitations, my own nerves, where I thought, You think, Hey, I could double fault that any second, or I just completely go off the rails, and the fact that you touched it out, and then when it comes to the other part of the game, doubles, I love my doubles partners, I absolutely love them.
0:13:37.3 Jack Broudy: Like I would love a brother. A brother that I like, you know, a lot of people out there... Do I have a brother? Suga, that guy. But you know what I mean? When I say like a brother. And when you really pull for each other and that camaraderie, which you don't get in tennis very much, and I think the double S really pulled me through a lot of the juniors tennis because it's very lonely, it's... It's weird sport for a kid, everyone else is playing baseball, basketball, football, and they're all been fun, then they're strapping each other, the town in the bath, in the lack of room and tennis player. You're all alone, basically, you drive with your mom or data, they stick you on a train and you know it's different, so it almost... You have to grow up fast. Doubles kept it fun for me, so I don't know if that explains it very well to you, but that's kind of how I feel about the sport, at least my own personal journey.
0:14:35.1 Bill Patton: How about you? I feel that I've had that journey to intro... Sorry, we got a little dog barking there, sorry, but that's a great... All of those things, it's the camaraderie, even though there's very little at a high level of junior tennis tennis in college, the van rides are unforgettable, honey, even fitness, even conditioning was fun, 'cause you're doing it with your six or seven or eight grows your teammates. So that's another thing I love about tennis, but really the team sports have that too, what I wanted to say is, there's no position in tennis, you're not alignment or a kicker or running back, or this or that, you are playing defense often, sometimes in the same three seconds, I love that, I love the creativity, I love the push and pull between, I gotta be disciplined and use this kind of shot selection, or I gotta be more creative again to this player, or I got a problem solve and I gotta do it... Of course, in college we can get coaching, but in the other 90% of tennis, and I'm talking about the lowest level of proteins that I played tennis, or at a pretty good level of junior tennis tennis that I played tennis, there's no coaching, in fact, it's actively outlawed.
0:15:54.4 Bill Patton: And you better problem solved and problem solved really well, and sometimes I have to do something that's not my plan at my plan B, it's my plan C, And maybe I gotta stop thinking about plans as and Cs, and maybe I gotta be fluid and smooth and be able to change things, which is one of the... I know we're not really talking about technique right now, but it's one of the other things I love about it, the creativity on the tactical emotional side of tennis is not that different from the creativity on the technical side of tennis, and that's another thing I absolutely love about this game, and I'll never stop. I'll be limping one day at 70, 80 years old, but I'm still gonna hit the tennis bat with strength, in other words, not the pickle ball. No, I'm addicted still to how these things move and snap back and spin the ball, like that feeling would be the third prong of my answer.
0:16:57.6 Jack Broudy: Yeah, and I think that's a good point. People ask why I don't get into pickle bomb, by the way, that 70s-80s crack... It's a little close to home here, but just say 80s and 90s from now on, width. You don't ever get the feeling and pickle ball that you get in tennis, I mean, when you hit a nice ball and tennis, and that sound is just... It almost makes your ears ring, sometimes it does, and you just unravel from your core out to your racket head into the ball, there's nothing that feels like that I played tennis some pickle ball. It was fun. It was easy. I didn't find out that I enjoy Pickett tennis. There's a pure-ness to tennis that it's just irreplaceable, and you really... And I guess that's why we all strive to play like better, whoever our hero is, because it's a natural way of feeling, it's like... I used to tell my kids when they go play tournaments like go, Hey man, I just go out there and fly out there, fly like a bird, swim like a fish, be... Use your core and do your figure it and really enjoy the process because there's nothing like feeling like you're sort of that one with nature.
0:18:22.6 Jack Broudy: And that's why I wish I had played tennis a little better when I was younger, because I was a grinder and I want ugly a lot, and I didn't like it, and it wasn't nearly as satisfying. I really profess that all my players now, before they even play a tournament, become a baller, because to go through life like a baller is a whole lot different world, it's a whole different life then going through like a grinder... And you know exactly what I'm talking about. 'cause most of us are granite.
0:18:51.7 Bill Patton: Most people are grinders, and some of us think we're ballers and we lose, but I'd rather lose. You use two words that I cannot hide my joy or my love for you use the word unraveling, you use the word fly, use your core. Use your stroke that's missing from some of the other things we do in life. And if we can find that feeling in other things, whether it's video editing or promotional post or a podcast, or whether it's on the court, unraveling and flying, that's what I'm into and I want that every day. I want that all the time.
0:19:36.5 Jack Broudy: Yeah, yeah. It's funny how we change though... I mean, I was living in California up until a year ago. You're in a year and a half now, and I would play tennis on a bad week, I'd play 20 hours, 'cause whenever I give a lesson, I play... I don't care if it's a two PAF, it's O-U-T-R or a 12 out. It didn't matter because just hitting the ball is such a delight, and I just was never much of a ball feeder unless I'm working on a specific shot or if I happen to be a little hurt one day, which I tried to keep down to a minimum. It was always live Ball, and I think the students like that better anyway, I've never been one of those guys to toss the ball in my hand and watch everyone run around while I tossed the ball, I was shit, they could just get a five-year-old to drop the ball, I don't need me. So yeah, like I said, it's just... So few people know what it's like to be a baller, and that's why you guys like curious, you might love them or hate them, but you gotta admit guys fun to watch.
0:20:45.1 Bill Patton: Such a ball he can grind, but he's such a male dictionary of the baller.
0:20:52.8 Jack Broudy: I agree, I agree. He's like a Stasi or like Alka boy. He just... He tees off. But with that said, I still like the guy who's the most disciplined and not the guy who just plays... Some of these guys, some of these ballers, so to speak, they play out the side themselves, in my opinion, they're like, Well, shit, I leave, hit the line or go out, and I'm like, Yeah, I'll take Novak seven days a week because the guys disciplined every balls within three feet of the base line, nothing, just eat meat and potatoes, you know nothing. He doesn't hit the biggest for hand, he doesn't it the biggest tennis serve, but his percentage for the first service, huge, he lines up everything so beautifully, and i just... He's my pick for the year, I think he'll get 24, 25 slams.
0:21:43.7 Bill Patton: At least, I think so too. I remember I've got a little bias in favor of a one in back end, so of course I'm gonna like stand Dominic and of course better. Are there... So there was a time you mentioned JK Inchon, how discipline and he's at times a Bolton, a grinder, he finds his movement is so good and his eyes are so good that he gets himself to where he had a 85-87% of his capabilities, and he wins with that, I remember disliking for a while, I'm talking about 05 through probably 08 maybe.
0:22:23.1 Jack Broudy: Who didn't? Everyone is... Yeah, I mean, he ruined the party... Right. At your favorite was the dolerite. Right, and you picked one and then this guy comes in and he runs the party
0:22:35.5 Bill Patton: Well, as a one-handed fan and a fan of attacking fans. I didn't like Rafa. I like this Look, I like the muscles and the movement. All that, the intensity, I appreciated the parts that one should appreciate when I sat... His tennis backhand is kind of ugly, and then you study it with high speed film and you study it, and you're like whole week out, he gets in position, and I read a stat, this is several years ago, that he's hitting his left 2-0 back in and we know he's really right and all that, but he's hitting it at the 45, he's hitting it not just at the 45, he's hitting it in a strike zone, whether Federer is icing a slice or So and so is ripping a top spin, a hide his tennis backhand. He is doing the movement, getting himself disciplined and in position to hit the back hand where he needs to hit it, something like eight out of 10 times, which is insane, and coming from a one-hand here, I've gotta do a few calculations like, do I move... Do I move back and take in here, do I slide it up here...
0:23:44.4 Bill Patton: Oh, shoot, that is low. Do I use this grip? Maybe not, maybe I slice it. There's all these calculations. Why? Because I'm not in physician like these freaks are these guys are another level...
0:23:57.9 Jack Broudy: Of course, of course. You know, it's funny, I was the same with Rafa. He really just pissed me off because I loved Roger so much, because Roger is... It's not so much how many trophy now, how many slams you win, and this and that, and how much money you make, for me, it was the pure ness, the way he hit so effortlessly, you can model... You know what I mean? He really epitomized the Figure 8 in the hips and the 45, and his arm did ripple out beautifully into the stroke, and it was all so balanced, he was unbalanced, he looked really like a ballet dancer, and then the dog comes out with his big body... People were skeptical about hormones and that, and of course, steroids and who's to say? Anyway, I don't know, I certainly wouldn't... I would purport that that's what it was, it just the guy was a frigging beast, but you know, when I watched him more closely, like you're saying, I found the same thing, I said, Wait a minute, when you look at them through different eyes, he looks identical, the joke of it better. The difference is, I think they all line up the same, they all line up that perfect by section of the vertical and horizontal, they all line up at the 45, but Nadal is so obsessive because of his overall personality, he won't go past the 45, so he is in the vertical, He's in the 45, but his figure eight is much more in the vertical, where Murray and Peter are more...
0:25:27.1 Jack Broudy: And especially Mary, he's more in the horizontal, fetter is perfect, he literally for every cubic and she moves in the lateral horizontal, he moves a cubic inch up in the vertical, he's perfect, which is why I liked him the best, and jokes more like better that way, but yeah, Mary was very much in the laterals and he made him very beautiful, and a doll wasn't quite as beautiful 'cause he was all in the vertical, but obsessive about not crossing the 45, he would come off the back hand and almost bumped it, and he would come off the 40 and like this and do the same... And he had so much rotation, but they all use the same principles differently. That's what I felt, maybe I'm full of crap. But that's how I felt.
0:26:15.4 Bill Patton: You've got a great eye and good taste, my friends.
0:26:18.6 Jack Broudy: Yeah, well, thank you. Is coming from you. That means something I appreciate that. Let me ask you some other questions. So we've gone into the great, great, and it's really fun to talk about greatness, and it's a little harder, nobody seems to wanna talk about the negative side and... So for starters, what I notice in, let's say the women's game right now... Let's start there. My only issue right now in the men's game, as I said, is the fact that some of these guys seem to play outside themselves, that's why I shrug my shoulders and go, No back, this tournament Joris tournament. He's got it, because I just think he's more disciplined and doesn't try to do too much, never tries to do too much. Just does what's necessary. The women's side, What bugs me is when Serena left the game, you once again see the incredible fish left when it comes to the servo... I'm gonna let you go on that 'cause people think I'm an old Cruden anyway, when it comes to women serves sold be the dinosaur and talk about women serves for a minute.
0:27:28.3 Bill Patton: I'm also an old curmudgeon, and for me, I probably coach tennis more elite guys than women, although I do work with two aspiring women on the ITF futures circuit right now, it is crazy to me how many coaches value, of course, great stuff like movement fitness, flexibility recovery of course, but a lot of them, they don't really teach to tennis serve very well, and it seems like a lot of women get away with the very typical, okay, under pressure, will just slice and they never really learn a big tennis serve or a tick tennis serve or a dependable second that either kicks up for crowds of the body, I know me, I have a good tennis forehand, but not when a guy is good enough to give me this, I have a great tennis backhand, but maybe not when I go, I like reaching and stretching and moving, but I don't like a back hand up here, and you don't see as much of that with the women, in fact, even when I hit with some of these guys, I'm like, Wow, I can return serving and break these girls because their servers are really not that great. I think a lot of it has to do with attitude and mindset, I think some of it is technical, I think a lot of them look the same, so you can...
0:28:54.5 Bill Patton: At little little conspiracy, not here. I feel like the coaches either let them get away with it, or they all teach the same thing and not as well as maybe they have a bias and they're like, Dude, I don't care if you're 59 or 64, we're gonna work on... There's no reason not to have an amazing tennis serve, and then guys, maybe guys are a little better at throwing up a football or a baseball, and they develop a great tennis serve, but I see it in two of the women that I work with, one of them holds the racket like it's a foreign object, and the other holds it like she's been holding it, like it's a crayon or a paint brush that you had in your hands since age two and a half, that's what I feel is missing in a lot of the tennis... Not just wingspan, but in general. So really great question. Everything I was just now communal about on a tennis serve in women's Tanis weirdly applies to slide back and drop volleys reaching vallis and crowded voles. They've got a little more work to do and wait till... You mentioned the void left in general, I think is how I took it, but avoid specifically in the Sur, Serena was number three, number 11, number one, winning slams, even when she wasn't really that fit, why? 'cause the air serves suck and her return is amazing, and her tennis serve is dominant and the shot after it is great, so if Serena in an 18-20 ball rally, she'll lose it because of maybe the other person's fitness or she'll win it because of her resolve and her tactical ability and her power, but if she's in a three, four, five ball rally, she's got the edge because their served sucked and she started the point well, with her amazing returning and her tennis serve is probably one of the, I would say top three of all time, probably maybe the number one of all time...
0:30:53.7 Jack Broudy: I think for sure, number one of all the time... Well, you there a lot to chew there... First thing you said was, the guys throw the ball is better and more often when they're young, and... It always brings me back to that YouTube video. I saw a Rafale watch how roared to tennis serve and you know... And all the coach tennis did was have him throw the ball further and as far as he could throw it on the tennis cook, if you're a great athlete, that's one way to teach it, is just let the guy find it himself through the ball throw. And I thought that was great. No one noticed what I've been noticing, I'm going crazy about the last five, six, seven years, and no one noticed he changed his tennis serve when he first came out and he didn't move that front foot, the right foot, he didn't move it. Now, he always moves it about this much, like when you step... To throw a ball, right? When you throw a ball, you coil up, you take that step, if you're writing with the left foot and you really know your hip, sun wind, and you release the ball at the 45, well, and the dollar had to just figure it out his own...
0:31:56.1 Jack Broudy: But that's the big thing, I can't believe one commentator hasn't picked it up, but his tennis serve, he never... And you could say, Well, you only steps this much, but this much can be the difference in everything, and that step gives him more of a ball throw, you see, as he tosses, he takes a little step with a left, but watch next time and you'll see...
0:32:19.6 Bill Patton: He had a version of it with the EL Roger, probably only this much, but I felt... We've all done it. I remember I took my US pro Tennis Association certification, and the tester... This is in Northern California. The tester at the time, or the assistant was like, Hey, I know you're warming up tennis serve, you'll have to do this, this and this, Kali, whatever. He's like, You're a good player. I'm not worried about you, but you are quilting, and I was like, Dude, I'm putting false because it doesn't matter right now, and I'm just warming things up and you take that tiny little step and then of course, what is the USDA official in a real match and you won't do it, but better was one of the first to do the actual step, and for me, Sampras was the... Not the first to do it, but the signature, greatest second share of greatest verse probably of my lifetime, but he did a version of it, so I'm with you on that stuff and you're correct. The commentators aren't gonna go into that, maybe they don't know... Maybe they don't produce the toothpaste... I don't know.
0:33:30.1 Jack Broudy: No, no, no. They don't know, they don't know. I can see tennis is trying, they're trying... The Netflix series was really interesting, by the way, we'll talk about it on the real spin next week, you and I, because I, I, I am not got a chance, I tried to watch it, I just couldn't... I just crazy busy. But I will watch it over the weekend when I have a little time off in between. Plus, I've been trying to digest some of these Australian Open matches as well, but they're trying tennis, you know they're getting different angles, now you see the angle through the tunnel as they're about to tennis serve, but I don't think they're trying very hard 'cause I don't... Eagleton in our last real spend, he said something interesting, he says, they don't have the lingo, you have some of the Christy ever, who's a wonderful person and a great player. Man, how can she possibly talk about a nice game, sororities, it's not possible. She didn't have that kind of game, she doesn't understand it, so I don't think they know enough to see little things like the foot moving and all that these are just players and inadvertently they become coaches, it doesn't mean that they're born to coach tennis, means that they're great players and some great players wanted them around them in the box.
0:34:49.7 Jack Broudy: That's how I feel about it. And then as far as the valley, you said something about the valley as well, you're right. Serena never was much in that area, I never saw an attempt, really anything but a swinging ball, and if she did, they were usually pretty ugly, vallis, she was not the queen
0:35:07.8 Bill Patton: Is... It was kind of mechanical, she got a gun because her approach was good...
0:35:13.4 Jack Broudy: Yeah, I think there's only one federer in the women's game and that was henin... That's my opinion. She
0:35:21.2 Bill Patton: Exceptional ESPN.
0:35:23.2 Jack Broudy: Amazing. It was a shame her career was cut short by personal issues 'cause she was by far by Federer, I thought she could have done what Peter did for the women's game, but yeah, I think she finished a 26 or so, but yes, so the values are another area in the women's game, so tell me, how would you... What would you tell the women out there, what do you tell the women... Do you coach tennis? How do you try and change it? 'cause to me, it's all the scene... Its Ben Jones equally, which is silly. I mean, that's silly. Bend your knees, just a simple bend, like bending means something, there's a thousand ways to bend your knees, so saying bend your knees as I... And then push up into the tennis serve, I mean, more nebulous terms you couldn't find... I mean, no. Talk of a colony. No. Talk of a coil. No talk of... It's really more like when you bend your knees on a server and He stroke really, it's more like vines, vines, the twist become shorter, but one Vine is always gonna be a little longer than the other, and as you unwise them, they'll change places, but you don't just bend your knees.
0:36:34.8 Jack Broudy: That's my issue with it. I'd like to hear your side of the story.
0:36:39.6 Bill Patton: I'm with you, and even Ben isn't gonna push forward much, a lack of loading and you see perfectly good. I'm talking about number 10 in the country in 16, and they don't coil, they just bring the rack it up, and there's nothing wrong with this as long as you get a little bit of coiling going with the whole body, not... I'm illustrating the elbow, 'cause this camera is just... Just understand. So incomplete, and maybe if you're a coach tennis, you get... I haven't done a lot of heavy technical changes because as I started coaching these two pro players, there were already very good players wanted played tennis pro on had played tennis division one college tennis, their strokes or their strokes, but the little changes that we make. One of them, I don't have to change a lot. The other... Wow, such a limited 5 foot 9. Perfect physique for the tennis, but when the service that inefficient to add a little bit of video analysis that shows, Okay, your hip is here and your elbows here, what if we had some coil... And then what happens is, I don't really have to say it, but one leg is bending a little better and more than the other, and now we've got tension, and now we've got release, and then we start talking about, Okay, let's have this spin and not just...
0:38:05.7 Bill Patton: No spin or just side spend. Let's add a little bit of that. And then we use Diclofenac, and you're gonna get me started on some of the lingo that is from the 70s, which I think covered pretty well when you're talking about commentators, our age and older, and a lot of it is lacking, and I appreciate that you said they just don't know. I think that's lazy, 'cause there's so much good... There's so much bad information out there, but there's so much good information. And some of these people you mentioned Chris Evert, she is in touch with and pals with people who played tennis in the late 90s, early 2000s, and now I don't know how tight they are with how she is with her coaches, but her brother John ever runs that academy down in cases. These people should know their stuff. And I have to think that maybe they do, or maybe their producers are telling them, You know, dumb it down, let's make it glamorous, let's make it the bathroom camera angles, and let's talk about what she's wearing and that's fine. But for me, I want the sound of the ball, I want the sound of the crowd and maybe an intelligent commentator, a quick shout out to Estes, 100 bucks I've spent not a lot of commentary.
0:39:27.7 Bill Patton: Decent sound of the court and the ball, and the court, ball and crowd, and not a lot of plus just I'm tennis and when I'm done, I'm done and I can have my own thought, so that's my piece on modern technique and not covered.
0:39:44.2 Jack Broudy: Yeah, yeah. What's his name? Roscoe said the other day to... Maybe it was a... I can't remember what I'm at, said that. I happened to like James Blake personally. I was teaching tennis at a club where he's a member in San Diego and good guy, bright, really bright guy in a nice, nice fella. I think he's one of the better commentators, but you honor Rosa, one of them was right when they said, Don't stop talking over the plane... I mean, it's about that. You want people to get into the point. Get into the point, just don't keep talking and talking about something that happened in 1992, let us watch the point and then give us your comments, Why did so and so hit in the bottom of the neck... Can you give us a reason after he just hit three scream and winters, now he hits the bottom of the net, not a peep, not a word. And I think that that's where we'd like to get a little insight, I mean, everyone knows that the back came down the line, winter was a great tennis backhand down the line winner, you don't have to say that was a great back end.
0:40:48.0 Jack Broudy: We just saw it. Don't tell me what I know.
0:40:52.2 Bill Patton: Yeah, Roskill was big on, don't tell me what I saw. Tell me what I didn't see. That's right. And Han was big on... He was really adamant about don't talk during the point, but his crisis of Blake was that he went to Harvard and he's so intelligent, I don't talk about AI, and Atlanta lytic and all that. And he's like, That's going over... Linehan was like, I'm a dumb guy from that... I forgot. It's good, I thought that was a funny moment. And it was... As much as I'm a dork and I do geek out over some of the analytical or... Maybe not AI, but some of those things that a Blake might say, Johannes, correct. You sit next to somebody who's not as geeky and crazy and a tennis... Like, U-R-I am, you're gonna lose people and I... I think you and I talked a little bit about watching break point, and it's quite a bit different when you watch it with your wife who may or may not be as experienced a tennis person as you, and that's how I feel, that's something... The push and pull I see while watching tennis...
0:42:04.9 Bill Patton: Like, who are they catering to? There's 400 of us in the world, and there is 4 billion of them in the world who they'd like to get into Center, so maybe that's why tennis commentary is kind of... Is satisfactory for us?
0:42:22.6 Jack Broudy: Yeah, I guess I guess I'm not sure who they're going for... Back in the 70s, when Tennis was in its heyday, when you were probably not even born yet. No.
0:42:34.4 Bill Patton: I was a kid lining up my racket for a public Colas in the Abby, that's what I do with the things.
0:42:41.7 Jack Broudy: We had a couple of guys, I always thought they were kind of dorky, but in retrospect, I'm like, You know what, they helped grow the game, it was obvious they weren't players at the time, I mean, Bud college, he wore that goofy looking clothes and those weird pants... And I was a kid, so I was trying to be hip, so to me, he was a dark... But when I look back, I think, you know, he brought a lot of history of the game, he informed people and brought them into the world of Tennis, and then the other was Vic brain, which I didn't agree with almost any of his stuff, especially as I got older, very linear, mechanical type teaching tennis, but so what I mean, he was dealing with Chrissy advertised Smith who played tennis a mechanical game, so maybe he was right on the money anyway at the time, but at least they tried... It seems like today, there's no color in our color commentary, you know what I mean? It's very dry, it's very bland, and there's really nothing that you go, Gee, I can't wait for so and so to speak, he's gonna help me with my tennis forehand here.
0:43:45.1 Bill Patton: Great point, color. And If I can contrast that with math and science, most tennis coaches back then taught what they were taught, and it was very linear, it was the same as the 60s, in the 70s, pretty much same in the 80s as it was in the 70s, or at least early bug tons with The Color, I'm not just talking about the pants, but the nicknames and that brought me... And even though we're trying to be cool and the guys at Vic Braden brought a lot of math and science, maybe not color, he was funny and he was goofy, and you say things like, Oh, you're gonna be famous by Friday, and so we're gonna make your back hand a weapon, whatever. Yeah, but whatever linear stuff, there are so many of us who see him... Yeah, as linear and I don't use those strokes anymore and whatever, when I was taught like that, and Roscoe, you mentioned when Roscoe was on our show, he told us a great story of weight plates, weight sensors. And it was Okay, Roscoe, you're not 65, you are six feet tall, maybe 5, 11 point, whatever, you are absolutely crushing balls with a small-headed racket, that PDP, which must have been like at most 68 or 70 inch head.
0:45:05.9 Bill Patton: How are you hitting so hard, so they put weeks on him and Rocco maybe weighed 175 pounds at the time when he's serving, he weighed over 300 pounds with the force that he's putting on this scale and this scale, and to your point about different events, one was more than the other, and we know what's what, but I'll let Ross could tell you that, but what an interesting thing to see what Vic brain brought to the science of... Let's see house fast switch works, let's see how reflexes were, let's see how the weight transfer or the transfer of power or the... I don't think he used the word kinetic chain, that became much more popular in the 90s, but the only early 80s, he did these things in Cuenca and he had Rocco over. And if you were a friend of his, you're also a science subject, and my hat is off to that, I think that's fantastic, even though we're trying to be cool and those guys are dark. Mad respect for both.
0:46:09.4 Jack Broudy: Yeah, and I give you back to John Eagleton is point about the new lingo, we need to aspire to a new lingo, and we've tried buzzwords for years, whether it's... I hate to say this. Can you use the word once loading, that's to me a buzzword like racket, head speed is a buzzword, they don't... Literally, literally. What is loading mean? Well, it's really hard to describe, so if you can't completely describe it, in my opinion, don't use a case, the figure in motion... I can show you right now, I could stand up and show you a little figure eight in my hips, the 45... It's right there. It's like there's no nebulous 45. It's there. And I think that is an issue. I think we've been basing this on linear thought, linear mathematics, when you have to go... And that's what I did 25, 30 years ago. I went into this program, the Steiner College up in San Francisco area, Sacramento actually, and all about non-linear motion is taught how can... I literally... We did these classes where you had a 40 mile an hour wind and an eight-foot flag, how would the flag...
0:47:24.8 Jack Broudy: Exactly. React at this point of the flag and at this point of the thing, and you saw mathematically, oh my god, and it all lines up to the 45, and I was just blown away and there was nobody under 90 in this class I was in... Everyone was a blue hair with glasses, most of it were German, and I was the only young guy in there, my friend and I... And I was blown away, I like, agate, oh my God, oh my God. And that's the problem is even the kinetic chain, now, this bone is connected to this, it's still linear thought, when you drop a pebble and water, I'd like to hear someone in a linear fashion explain what's going on a... Do it or take a picture of a big moving flag. Does that picture mean anything... Of course it doesn't, you have to understand the scope, and that scope has to be, I think, in a lineage that is a non-linear and progressive meaning, it's emotion, you can't talk about something, you can't take a picture and say, Well, look where as rack it is it doesn't matter because you need to encompass the whole thing, it's an analog system, not a digital system, in my opinion, so even the kinetic chain was kind of a buzz word, even though I think there was some talent to it, of course.
0:48:42.9 Jack Broudy: And so that sort of, I've always come from, you know.
0:48:48.2 Bill Patton: All those incomplete steps lead to more complete strokes, and sometimes it can paralyze somebody to put too many eggs in the basket of that, whether it's what Vic was talking about, or linear strokes or kinetic chain. But all that led to some of the things that we get to analyze and use, and hopefully as coaches, we can help people feel those things, and that's... When you've done your job, I'll give you a quick example. I had a coach tennis who work for me years back, and most of them were amazing and receptive and wonderful, and he would use the word Load early, and this was a fairly athletic 14-year-old kid is teaching tennis and he's like, load early. And the parents love it because, Oh, it's even better than prepared early, but what did it do? This poor kid can't run because she loaded early and five minutes ago, this kid was a good mover, and now all of a sudden she's a horrible mover because she's loading early, and I had to say, Hey, whatever you said may have worked with another student, but it's clearly not gonna help a lot of people, so let's find different ways to say that, and me, as he was saying it on another court, I'm like, God, I don't like loading early, I'm maybe turning and preparing slightly on the early side, but I wanna lead to write when it's time and then I wanna hit the ball, like you said, I wanna hit the ball with timing and beauty and strength and slow, I don't wanna be all loaded early and then I move like crap, and then I hit Linear and I'm like, Other was good.
0:50:26.8 Bill Patton: What happened? We're gonna do something about it. Yeah.
0:50:30.3 Jack Broudy: It's funny, it's like when I was a kid and they hit through the ball, I mean, when I first started playing, I always think I was better naturally before I started taking lessons, 'cause a lot of pros were saying, Oh no, you wanna pretend there's five balls in front of that ball and you wanna hit through, Well, that just turned you into a pusher, and that's what I became. I became a pusher, and at first I really love walking, I love to wall up the ball, and I didn't know what I was doing, and then honest and I'm hitting through the bond trying to hit five ball is at like a hot dog all the way through it... And all of a sudden, whatever natural athleticism, my head was crushed by that tip, that's why I don't really like tips at all, I think you either learn to understand the game, I don't like that at Etienne, stand the game, or don't understand it, but... Tips generally don't help. They're very fleeting, and I'm doing it 'cause you told me to do it, not because it makes sense to me, but you know it's funny, I was talking earlier about...
0:51:26.0 Jack Broudy: I gotta say, I forgot this story. You love this one. So I'm coaching format, I'm coaching form, and he's one of the country in the 12s, this is 2003 or something. And we're at the cost four seasons, and that's where I was coaching most of the time in California, and I lived there, and Roy emo Emerson on the next court. Right, like Man, that's cool, 'cause I had met him once before through labor and this and that, and I thought I was really cool, and I'm given Steven a lesson and he screams 'cause cocky kid, cocky kid, and he's screaming across the court, Hey, Jack, this coach tennis is doing it is saying it all wrong, 'cause Emerson was saying, you wanna move your arm first, your shoulder second and your hips third. Okay, and that's obviously not what I coach tennis, literally. And Steve goes and he screams it across the court at me, and they were there on the next court, and I was mortified, he goes, Jack, he's coaching it all wrong, just like that, and I was absolutely mortified. And I brought him in and I go, Steven, quiet. I said that kind of living legend, I should have your mind...
0:52:39.3 Jack Broudy: Well, grand slam. Yeah, I said, you had... Your mind says, I don't care, he says, you hear what he's saying. I said, Well, just 'cause he was a great player. Doesn't mean he said, maybe that's what he feels I said, but let's keep it down. But Steven would do that to me here and there, he was just pretty bad open. But anyway, so I don't know. So when I say Chris Evert stance, these people don't know, I really mean it. I don't think they know what we know, because they haven't had to fight like we've had to fight... Just to be good grinders.
0:53:12.9 Bill Patton: Amen. Amen. God could get on us for taking the hard road and not being as good at them...
0:53:20.1 Jack Broudy: Yeah, we always had to keep striving and keep learning and keep trying to be more like them, and I think when it comes to the... You don't question it as much.
0:53:31.7 Bill Patton: And there's something thing also to be said, I went from high performance coaching pros, college kids, elite juniors tennis, to being a club Pro for a lot of years, and then coming back to the world of very, very good players. And that 26 years as a club pro, I saw so many successes and failures that it helps me, even though it's different, but it has helped so much. And sometimes you need that. I remember interviewing the great strategist and analyst talk about AI and statistics, Creo shanty, and he said he woke that up in me, he said, Look, I was a good player, I was on the team of Bay, I was very high level junior tennis too, and I don't know what, Top 50 and tashi first job after stopping to play its seven satellite at the time is what we called him. He was made to coach tennis beginners and he's like, What the hell am I doing it... What is this? You have no idea who I am. And then he said, Three months later, he realized what a better coach tennis he is at the high levels, thankful for the low levels, and you and I have put in those hard yards and...
0:54:55.8 Bill Patton: What was the word you used is the strength or the reps or whatever word you use, I thought Now did what was that? Whatever it was, it's the idea is, we've put in that kind of work, and it makes you quite a bit better now, maybe Christy is gonna be listened to if it's somebody buying for... The difference between the first week and the second week of the slam, I see where that helps, but I'm with you, I would love to see them commentate with that knowledge of not necessarily being a teaching tennis Pro a club for 25 years, but being experienced with the reps and seeing, Hey, what's gonna help? Joe Blow watching this, or Suzie house coat watching this, who is really not getting the best stuff from maybe the teaching tennis Pro at home or not letting that teaching tennis pro know that, Hey, I'm ready for the good stuff, I'm ready for beautiful strokes that aren't that different from what's working on TV? I see it all the time like, Okay, let's teach super linear, ugly, old strokes, and then one day we'll graduate in this, this event, and the more I get better at this stuff, the more I'm like, You know, I don't like that, I like...
0:56:16.6 Bill Patton: Let's do it right and beautifully and naturally, and all of a sudden that 14-year-old who was a good mover, she becomes an even better mover and she's striking the freaking ball and she's spitting it, and it's not just flat, she's getting it... That ball looked like it's out, that it's in and that's what was tennis matches, that's what I love to see. A part four of my answer of why we love this game.
0:56:42.2 Jack Broudy: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And I think the teaching tennis beginners and teaching tennis pros, I remember one of the last lessons I gave Sam query up, and Dick van Pat's house up in very... Yeah, we would meet there, 'cause he came from Thousand Oaks, I came from Delmar, we meet the middle, and Dick was just a fanatic, He loved tennis, and so the whole family, Indian now, I just love the game and they're all good at it. But yeah, basically on his back home Valley, I remember that last lesson, we were just working on lining it up... I'll tell that to a 20 women men, it doesn't matter. Principles or principles, you don't just go, Well, I'm gonna get you off to a good start so you can hit the ball, and later we'll talk about hips and spin and... No, no, no, no. You teach them right from the beginning. And then let them flourish, let him live into this geometry, instead of saying, Well, you know, I'm just gonna get you to touch the ball like a touching a dot with a mallet and then... And it'll get you on the court and play with your friends, well, you know you're gonna keep the same friends 'cause you're not gonna keep moving on, that's the problem.
0:57:51.7 Jack Broudy: So I'm with you on that
0:57:53.5 Bill Patton: And you're on and you're gonna keep serving like this and... Beautifully, right, man.
0:58:00.6 Jack Broudy: I was realizing about when we were ripping on the women's serves, it may not be just the coaching, it may be the... 'cause you said to me something like, you said, Well, I've got some good players now, and I'm afraid you don't really wanna touch their strokes 'cause they're comfortable and this and that. I had an 11-year-old, it was Steven sister Karen form, and she just won the National Little Mo member. Little Mo. Oh yeah. Okay, you're in Texas, of course. You know, he, he just the one little Mo back in, whatever, 19, 99 or 20, whatever, she won the 10 and under or 11 under. And I was on, I was really working on her surveying to give her a tighter coil on a bigger pop, 'cause she's not a tall Cade brother, Steven 65, and she was not a tall kids, you more like 53, 54 and now 55, 5-6. But she said to me as an 11-year-old, she said, Jack, my service fine, it goes in. And it's fine. Let's not mess with it. And that's a 11-year-old, so I know. So it's partly the players too, I would imagine it, that they just don't wanna touch it because the ball goes most of the time.
0:59:11.4 Jack Broudy: Yeah.
0:59:13.9 Bill Patton: And there's a time of year, I'll touch it, and there was a time of the year when the tournament's coming up that we won't touch it, but... Sorry, you're not to say about that, I'm the same time. It's the player.
0:59:25.6 Jack Broudy: Yeah, I'm the same. But I always think there's no time like the present, especially if you think they could hurt themselves with that ugly tennis serve, and eventually their shoulder is gonna give out like rafters shoulder, even though he had a big tennis serve... He did a couple of things, in my opinion that weren't too correct, and so his shoulder blew out on them, and they had a very short career, I mean, he could have gone another 10 years really.
0:59:53.7 Bill Patton: A fit guy with a great tennis serve despite the limitations, the lack of coil, the heavy up down, not a lot of vines, like you said, the twisting, but
1:00:07.6 Jack Broudy: Exactly the same way I actually compare his tennis serve the hinges, Haus could have been the greatest of all time. I mean, she used to give the Williams sisters fits, just playing them down the middle, I mean, she would just drive him nuts, but her seether tennis serve was such a detriment, kind of like dementia who could have been one of the greatest, but her serves just SOAP is poor, it was just unbelievable. Even share pulls big as earth tennis serve, she would average 20 double faults in a tournament, every match. He was incredible. So soon on, we'll send them all to us. Right. We'll fix them, right. Well, my Freese you what, AJ, I really enjoyed our conversations today and in the last few weeks... It's a pleasure knowing you. I have a feeling. We're gonna be good friends for a long time now, and
1:01:02.6 Bill Patton: I can feel it. Yeah, thank you, Jack has been awesome. Shout out to the man who introduced us just on the phone, so... Thank you, Bill. Brainstorm so thankful because we've become good friends already just in the past month or two.
1:01:21.7 Jack Broudy: It's true, and we have a lot of comment and who knows, maybe we'll get one court one of these days together and really have some interesting times.
1:01:28.7 Bill Patton: I would love that so much. Yeah, for sure.
1:01:32.0 Jack Broudy: Well, certainly, if you ever get up here for a vacation in the mountains, Colorado, you look me up and you're in Dallas... Correct.
1:01:40.3 Bill Patton: That's right. In the city at.
1:01:42.1 Jack Broudy: I'll do the same and let's try to make a point of it here in the next year or so.
1:01:47.0 Bill Patton: No question about it, Jack. Big think today it is really fun, and we get to do something on Monday as well, and Wednesday as well.
1:01:56.7 Jack Broudy: We were doing the real spin baby, it's gonna be fun, Lalit, your hair down that night, I want you to let loose that night...
1:02:04.7 Bill Patton: I will.
1:02:05.3 Jack Broudy: I will be in some of those other... Some of those impressions. Okay, and you can't bum 'cause you get the other three of us or four of us there, so it's impossible.
1:02:15.8 Bill Patton: We'll have some fun. Would be great.
1:02:18.5 Jack Broudy: Alright, hey, thank you, my friend.
1:02:21.8 Bill Patton: Looking forward to it. Thanks, buddy, I'll see you. Do you want to
1:02:24.1 Jack Broudy: Enjoy the rest of AO? I will.