Andy Zodin: time. I tell the joke about how years
Andy Zodin: uh, I was working with Owen Davidson and we were working with, with a group of three, oh and 35 ladies and they were out hitting the ball and one of them kind of yelled at a distance to Owen Davidson, you know, can we work on some strategy? And he brought everybody in? And I said, you know, asked what she said to repeat the question and she said, can we work on strategy? And he said, well, You know, based on what I've seen for about the last 15 minutes, it would be a good strategy to hit the ball a little better. And that always stuck with me for, for 30 some odd years. And so I think you're gonna address things similarly. So, um, Jack, you've been part of this game for, for so many years, grew up in southern California and a very accomplished junior player, a very accomplished pro. Uh, and coach you've worked with, Let's see here, Sam query Stevie, johnson, steve Forman, Coco, Vandeweghe way, Abigail Spears warren would, you've also worked with coaches like peter smith, Emilio, Sanchez, nick, voluntary mike, Annette. Um, and your products have been used, you know, by the bryan brothers and many others, including golfers And the Top 100. So without further ado, Jack Broudy, welcome to the Intermountain Conference. It's so great to see you.
Jack Broudy: Thanks. Thanks Andy, nice to be here. I'm new to the, I'm new to this area. So it's a, it's a lot of fun for me and I'm not used to the snow yet, but I'm getting there and I kinda like it, my dog likes it.
Andy Zodin: Well, I was, when I first moved here from texas, I hadn't seen it, we had a really cold winter and I think you've experienced the same thing. Let's start with this, Jack, let's just, let's just take a look at sort of the, the topic in its entirety and ask, what do you mean by hit a better ball and play like it's second nature, I mean, it seems obvious, but what, what's your take on that?
Jack Broudy: I mean, as it started for me as a junior, I was a journeyman, you know, I was ranked up 15 or so in my section, New England, that's actually where I grew up till I was about 17 years old and then I went to college, played Chapel Hill and Ucsd, but when I was a junior remember being in the boy's fourteen's, you know, losing in the quarters and then watching the two guys in the finals, you know, and watching them warm up and just thinking to myself, you know, I don't think I can get all these big wins without hitting a ball the way these two guys do period and it never left me my whole life. I just thought, you know, I mean, I was in great shape, I ran up sand dunes and Palm springs and I did everything you could possibly do to get in great shape, I read all the strategy books I read, you know, the inner game, I read it all and, and did it all. I went to Harry Hofmans Tennis academy in florida and I just, I tried so hard and I was a good journey, but that was it. You can't go to the next level unless you hit a really good ball unless you're consistent, unless you look good, It's gotta look good too, because hitting a good ball, it's, it's tennis and golf. Those sports are all about form, it's not like football, where you've got a big, massive body and you're, you're a blocker, you're a tackler or this or that tennis is, is strictly about form. So I, when I was a kid, I remember thinking I was very fast, you know, very fast and I wanted to win so bad. But I always thought to myself, I would give, I would give one of my arms to hit the ball the way these guys do and I felt that way my whole life, I just felt like, hey, if you hit a great ball, you look better, you feel better, you enjoy yourself and you can just play tennis without stressing out. You don't have to chip and charge all the time, you don't have to lob when you should be passing them, you know what I mean? You can rope the ball instead of steering the ball. So it's been a life quest and I was fortunate enough to coach so many good players. You mentioned a few of them um that I really got to understand uh, with my students, How, how this heavier ball, this funkier ball is hit and then, you know, I'm sure, you know, 25 years ago I invented the eight board and a bunch of other products that people still use today on all different sports. And it was, it was starting there, which is when I started getting all these good students because the kids and the parents started thinking, oh, I like that, that that wiggling of the hips, that makes sense to me and and the more I coached, the more I picked it up myself, I started playing left handed, I play a pretty nice lefty game today and I couldn't have, you know, I couldn't have scratched my head 20 years ago with my left hand, but I play a nice game, I still serve lefty and my right handed game is, you know, become way better than college, I mean, and I played college tennis and did pretty okay. And once again journeymen though, so to me, it's all about the way you hit the ball and I know people are really into strategy and all that, but I'd still give my arm to hit a better ball, you know, if that's all I can do is just be a great hitter, I would take that over grinding and pushing and retrieving any day, at least for me personally, that's how I felt about
Andy Zodin: how, how has the, how has your interpretation of hitting a better ball evolved from the time that you and I were in the juniors in the, you know, in the, in the seventies and college tennis around that time, obviously the equipment has had an effect on it, but as far as the physical fundamentals, have you seen those evolved as well, uh, substantially, as far as part of your system?
Jack Broudy: Yeah, I mean, I I was an okay coach even in my early 20's I had some decent players, journeymen, Uh you know, like me guys that would grind it out to be in the top 20, top 30. But yeah, I mean it kind of, I kind of discovered it all with Agassi, I started studying that guy and realizing, wait a minute, he's smaller than everyone else and he's out hitting everybody. And I felt the same about Marcello Rios, right, I'm watching this guy who was five ft seven, just, you know, out a sing Safin, pushing them all over the court. And I just, it struck me and At the time I was studying this thing called projective geometry, spatial dynamics. It's real heavy stuff. It has nothing to do with tennis, nothing to do with tennis. But the steiner colleges were all over the world, there's 60 of them all over the world and people don't know about them because they have, once again, tennis pros don't know because it has nothing to do with tennis, it's mathematics. And and they started talking about this figure eight and how you can see how a figure eight translates to a larger figure eight, kind of like dropping a pebble in water, right? You see the rings exponentially get larger. And they talked about pascal's line, which was the 45 degree angle. And I started thinking to myself, wait a second, I see something here, you know. And I started super slow motioning these guys like Rios and Agassi and Sampras on his serve and other players. And I just said, Oh my God, this is this is really something everyone meets the ball at the 45° angle to the to their body, to the net, Right? And and and if they don't they drive it in the net. Like when they're early, the ball, you know, ahead of the 45, the ball goes to the net. And then I started realizing later that the shape of their hand was just what this guy was talking about, how Small figure eight creates a sine wave, it's all mathematic terms, nothing to do with tennis. But I saw, oh my God, wait a minute when these players turn their hips, their arm doesn't go back, right, It doesn't go back here, it just it just stays in front of them and they start to create this coil, this, this curvature between their hips and their hand and their racket head. And then as they continue with their figure eight. The racket would lay back and do this sine wave. So when it made contact with the ball it was a different shape then I I've never no one ever said here's exactly how the strings meet the ball to me and oh my God when I realized that I realized well that's why guys like Sam and Stevie hit such a funkier ball. Then all the rest of my kids and the rest of my kids were good right They're all top 50 and so cal they weren't bad but the best informant and warren all the best players it sounded different the way they hit and you could see the ball sort of sunk into their strings a little deeper and you could feel that the ball had more air being pressed into it and contact. You know all these qualitative things that you can't really describe to someone. It's kind of like surfing Andy I can't really tell you how it feels to surf unless you surf.
Andy Zodin: Well then that begs to ask I think we'll just start this session out by asking what maybe some people are thinking which is that is it possible, Jack that based on what you're describing that some of these medical, excuse me these metaphysical philosophies of yours. Um Maybe we're born of maybe time spent at Woodstock.
Jack Broudy: No I was only
Andy Zodin: no
Jack Broudy: no no no no it's not like I haven't, I've heard that.
Andy Zodin: Alright,
Jack Broudy: alright, this is only
Andy Zodin: I
Jack Broudy: Was only 13 years old during this isn't fluffy. Okay. As much as I really like, I really like the inner game of tennis a lot. But in retrospect it was quite fluffy, it was quite hippy dippy. And you know, you gotta feel it and you've got to you know, let things go. Mine's not letting things go. Mine is not about being unconscious. Like the you know how the commentators say, oh he's playing out of his mind, he's on unconscious. No, mine's the opposite mindset about being super conscious, right? When you see that forehand coming, you line up To that 45 precisely, you don't mess around and then you do, you know you continue with your hips, your racket goes from concave to convex right along that 45° line. And as it lays open the ball sinks into the strings, you push air into it makes that nice sound and you can do it every time. It doesn't have to be a gi hit three great shots today, honey. No, you know, this can be every time to where you go, gee you know, I hit too bad balls today. That's kind of the difference I think between a grinder, which is what I was and a baller. Right? The ballers like sam and curios and whoever else is out there. There are the guys I want to play like, I mean, you know, some guys go, oh it's great to be a grinder, you're in great shape and I'm like, that might be for you, I don't want to be the grinder, I don't wanna be the guy who's, oh, he's so fast and he gets everything back. Never really interested me, I wanted to be the baller
Andy Zodin: that being said, Jack, there are probably people on this panel or excuse me of the attendees right now that are thinking of themselves. Well that would be nice to be able to learn to hit the ball like curios or to learn to hit the ball like query and I'm not saying you can't, but how would you push back on somebody that says, well they're just so supremely talented that it comes so natural for them. Can you learn to be talented? Yeah,
Jack Broudy: Of course they haven't. They have an unconscious knowing of this system I'm talking about. They they have an unconscious knowing they know that their rackets start small in their body and as they unfurl it goes way out and they know that 45, whether they can describe it or not doesn't matter, But they have an unconscious knowing of exactly what I'm talking about and yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm 66, I'm roping the ball now every time I play and I don't even play as much as I did as a kid, I play now that I'm in Colorado every couple of weeks with some good players here. You probably know some of them and nothing ever changes from the first ball. First moment I get out there Because I've got the 45 and I've got these fundamentals That never changed. I mean the 45° angle never changes where I, I said earlier with the inner game of tennis, your psychology, your mental acumen that day. It changes every day. But with mathematics you can depend on mathematics. It's, it's just never going to change.
Andy Zodin: So let's talk about some of the players that you've worked with and you made some general comments about Stevie johnson and, and obviously his forehand speaks for itself and
Jack Broudy: its
Andy Zodin: big as his nick and sam and all those boys. But talk about the specifics of what you have learned from some of these players that you've worked with and how that has filtered its way into your system.
Jack Broudy: Yeah, I'm glad that's a great question no one ever asked me, but I like that like foreman, Let's take him for example, he won. He was number one in the us 12 through the 18's really good player big boy. So it was, it was kind of easy with him. I got him on the board and I got his hips moving in a figure eight from the time he was five years old and I asked him once he, he won the backdrop
Andy Zodin: before you go. You got him on the board and I know what that means, but just maybe be a little more specific for those who don't understand the board.
Jack Broudy: I patented a product 20 some odd years ago called the eight board. It was basically a board that you stand on. It has two swivels and by standing on the two swivels, you create a center point, right? A vertical axis, right? Because you can't move or else you'll step off the board. So by swiveling your feet, you learned how to move your hips in this continuous figure eight fashion, which you see all the pros, you know, all the good looking pros do that. There are a few pros that rotate their shoulders, but they're not Feder, they're not Djokovic, they're not an adult, they're not hidden there. The journeymen There, the journey men that are grinding and doing the best they can. And they're 25 in the world, they're 30 or 50 and they're working a lot harder even than than the top guys because the top guys, their form is so much purer that they actually have to work less than these other guys grinding and I can speak from experience. I was a grinder. So yeah, I asked foreman ones either won or lost in the finals one year, the back draw Of the Orange Bowl, you know, the Orange Bowl, pretty, pretty tough tournament. You've got about 15% of Americans there and the rest are from all over the world. Anyway. Stephen gets there, he loses him like the second or third round, but he gets to the finals of the back draw and does really well and uh one of his matches, I can't remember which one, maybe it was the quarters or semis, he was down a couple of match points and I had to and I was there and I said to him, I said steve well, I mean he ripped by the way he did what I would never have done as a junior, he ripped the return served winner on one ball and then he ripped a passing shot on another. I mean he everyone every match point he was down, he ripped the ball and I would never do that, I'd be lobbying, you know, I'd be praying the guy would miss because I was a journeyman, not not a not a baller, I wasn't top top guy in the country. And Stephen said to me, he goes, man, he says every time it was a big moment, I just thought to myself line up to 45 and let your racket fly out into the 45° angle big time and just go for it. And I thought, huh, that's pretty neat and then uh that same year eric Riley one, another boy I coached for 10 years or so, he was in the 12, no, no he was older, he was in the 16th and he uh no 18th, he was in the 18th and they won the doubles in my in Miami that they won the yeah you betcha they won the Orange Bowl doubles and this kid's not big, he's only about 57 very small kid but a great doubles player. And I said to him what is how come your volume? I mean he didn't miss a value the whole tournament. I said what are you thinking? Because I I know what I taught him but I want to know what they're thinking. He said Jack, I always kept the butt of my racket. He says it's just the way I do it. I keep the butt of my racket attached to my navel, my belly button And he says and I just move my body in a small figure eight and just line up the 45 he says I can't miss I just can't miss I never leave the 45. The rackets always connected to my center. So I learned a lot from my guys you know and and I even asked Warren once he won the N. C. Double A. S in 2015. Really nice player, pound for pound. He's on the circuit right now. But he's he's like 1400 in the world but he just got started. He just got his first A. T. P point a few months ago over in africa and he just went on tour He decided to 28, I want to go back on tour. So yeah, so he went back out and I remember when he was a young kid, he won his first gold ball. I said to him, I said gee really just you nailed the ball. I said, can I ask you something? He goes, yeah, because we're really close, I'm close with all the kids. And I said, what's the, what's the one or two things that you always think about? He goes, well, he says, on my groundies, he says, which is what I live off of because he's one of those guys, he's just unbelievable backhand, great groundies. He said, I thought of what you told me when I was eight years old. I said really? He says, yeah, he says, you told me to pretend like I'm a B and plant your stinger in the ground and then move without moving your stinger. He says that's always kept me centered, but I still have the hip rotation, but I always stay centered. You know, I never move my upper body where I pull off the ball. And he does, he has a beauty, I wish I could show you right now. And he he has a beautiful, probably one of the prettiest two handers in the game period And he's only about 150, there's only 150 lb and he just ropes the ball.
Andy Zodin: So I got a question that came in here with regard to the 45 having to do with grips, these groups do grips matter to you. I mean, is that is that kind of, this applies whatever grip you are comfortable with, you just have to systematically put those things together. Would be my assumption. I don't wanna put
Jack Broudy: worse. Such such a great question. Um well, I am funny about grips certainly on serves and volleys. I'm old school. I'm a big believer, you gotta master the continental grip. Some people say you don't have to, they say you can even hit a volley with the backhand volley with two hands. I don't let my five year old's hit a backhand volley with two hands.
Andy Zodin: Okay, that's definitely where you and I part ways, but
Jack Broudy: that's fine. No, no, because the thing is the kids learn that's another thing, roundness is much stronger than straightness. So the whole idea of bending your elbow and punching uh your arm is straight, it's bent, but it's, it's in a linear fashion. And then when you straighten it, it's straight in a linear fashion. I teach the kids to keep their arm rounded, the way you see Federer henan, their arm is always rounded like a bird's wing. So I have my five year old's hitting one handed backhand volley. So I'm a big believer in the Continental grip on the serves and volleys on granny's, I'm not such a stickler. I don't like the only thing I don't like, I don't like the extreme Western grip for only one reason it's very hard to face the 45 like the way Nadal does when he makes contact and I stop action him all the time. I mean I watch so much video, it's insane. He's always his left hands tucked in here and he's always lined up to the 45 and then right after contact. Yes, then he violently, you know, you see his shoulders violently moved but with the western grip you have to face the net even though your racket flies out to the 45 your eyes are facing the net. So with the semi western you can still keep your, your purview, your view towards that 45. That's the only reason I don't
Andy Zodin: like the
Jack Broudy: full Western grip.
Andy Zodin: I would have been wrong which today has been sort of my norm
Jack Broudy: questions
Andy Zodin: that I've been asking, so almost pitching a perfect game. I think I asked one question before that warren said, you're right and I'm like, yes, but I would have assumed that your aversion to the extreme Western is how restrictive that is in developing the other areas of your game. You don't see a lot of great volleyers with the extreme Western and maybe not even in some cases great servers. So
Jack Broudy: yes, you're right, it's
Andy Zodin: to everybody
Jack Broudy: if you're keeping
Andy Zodin: score at home.
Jack Broudy: I was only talking about formulating the stroke itself beforehand. I agree 100% for starters, You know, go ahead and name some good volumes. You can barely name 10 in the last 50 years. I mean when you go to the women you go headed really, you don't think of anyone else but any, you know, because everyone else, all the other women serena, I don't think I've ever seen serena's hit a volley. She only swings and most of the women, I
Andy Zodin: think venus eventually developed. She she started out with a mid court swinging volley. But it seemed like when she started winning big on grass and playing more doubles, I saw her hit more and more valleys with under spin in her older age. But to your point
Jack Broudy: you could be right, you could be white, but but certainly when you go to the men, even You go from Federer and you go right to sampras and then you go right to Edberg. So, I mean, let's not even talk about volumes because the game has been woeful when it comes to volleying since the new calm days. And you know, since since the 60s and 70s. Yeah, no. And johnny Mac had a good volley boy. That's, there's a guy who located the 45 even his groundies. All right, that's all he did was he just lined up the 45. It was not a pretty stroke one grip,
Andy Zodin: but that
Jack Broudy: Guy had the 45 locked in and I never realized it until I was older. I actually uh you know, played in tournaments with him in the Voice twelves and fourteens, we're the same age. So uh I played his doubles partner, my very first tournament guy worked me oh and one
Andy Zodin: peter Fleming
Jack Broudy: and it wasn't Fleming. Reiner Gary Reiner
Andy Zodin: okay.
Jack Broudy: And I
Andy Zodin: had somebody chime in with with party as a good female volume and one in the world, she's, she does seem like she's got a fairly complete game.
Jack Broudy: I'm pretty impressed with her. She's got me watching, she's got me watching women's tennis again a little bit more now I am impressed with her. The thing with the women's game is no one ever wins two tournaments in a row. You know, it's so rare, you know, you get Osaka winning a tournament and then she loses the first or second round in the next three tournaments and you're like, you know, what's, what's going on here? Well we
Andy Zodin: had Pat Cash that we spoke to not on this conference, but then we had Darren cahill last night and Pat Cash made a comment to us that he said and he's working with um he's working with uh one of the, one of the one girl's chang wong, they call her Q. And she's doing very well on the tour and and and Cash, she was saying that after the US Open final with Rod a canoe and Leila Fernandez they now have 50 girls in the locker room that are convinced that they can win a slam or at least go very deep if they're going to watch these two teenagers do what they did. There's a lot of why not me kind of stuff going on, which is probably going to lend itself to exactly what you're,
Jack Broudy: I'm convinced, I'm convinced of that myself. You know, you just don't see a woman dominate maybe actually will. Um but you know, certainly Sloan didn't. I mean there were so many girls that did well in one to even my girl, I worked with cocoa and not called.
Andy Zodin: Yeah,
Jack Broudy: she had a good tournament, but that's what you say with the women, they had a good tournament. I mean, you know, the only one who really dominated was serena but I almost never use her as an example because I would not say she played the effortless game and that's really what I'm into is can everyone play like Federer? Yes, can everyone play like serena? No, no way. Because her physical prowess is really half the reason, you know, she played the way she did and she's very competitive but roger plays such a pure game. It's like watching waves crash on the, you know, it's like watching surfers all day, that's what it's like to watch roger. It's painless. What
Andy Zodin: was your, what was your, what were your thoughts Jack when you started to see the advent of the serve plus one which you could trace that back to Andy Roddick I suppose and what we, what we saw the day Andy Roddick won the US open and I believe he beat juan Carlos Ferrero in that final and he was dominant. It looked like he was going to be the king of the mountain and it was gonna be everybody to kind of catch up with him and then suddenly Federal leapfrogged him and never looked back. But but a lot of american players have emulated that game. And if we look at our, you know, the great players, the queries, the guys that you've worked with, we still see a lot of the accusation of what's wrong with american tennis and that it's the game isn't well rounded enough.
Jack Broudy: Of course. I mean, you remember Nick's old nick, I'm friendly with him as well. Nice guy, good guy. Nick military remember his old video back in the nineties or late eighties, You got to have a weapon, You got to have a weapon. I mean that's all I mean, he literally said it just like I did and that's the problem the clay courts and the large rack is really, It was a big advantage to the people that played on clay. All they needed was a little more power. So we're running around and my boys included were running around with serves and forehands of course we can't crack the top 20, of course we can of course. I mean how could we, you got Djokovic with every stroke in the game Nadal Federer Wawrinka's got beautiful backhand, he can volley Andy Murray could do it all and you've got our guys with big first serves, kick, everyone's gotta kick second serve, they spank them, they spank that forehand so hard and then backhands they can't return serve very well like drainage and a few others, they just can't return serve on the backhand side and they can't hit the backhand down the line. So you've got these clay quarters that can do it all and and now they have a little bit more power. So I think it hurt the American game. I think the whole idea, even though Nick was on top of the world and like I said, he invited me to Florida, I brought the boards, he had me give a clinic to all 27 of his pro. Really good guy, I like him. But I think that idea of having a big weapon or having a big serve, I think it killed american tennis because um you want to be an all around player. No awkward player, real quick quick story and then and then you can you can jump on this one. So one year, one year steven and Fabian and who else? Uh eric Riley, we won the 12, 14 and 16 at the Socal sectionals and that's saying a lot because the Socal sectionals is like a national
Andy Zodin: tournament, it's
Jack Broudy: A tough one and we won the 12, 14's and 16's that year and you know what I did the week before, I had a little, you know, training camp for this. It was called the sectionals training camp and it was only, I only allowed eight kids in it and all. He got to the quarters or better and then three of them won the tournament. Um, and unfortunately one beat the other in the semis. So what I did was I said, we're gonna play a little game and this was on Wednesday because I knew, I knew how hard this game was going to hurt him. I said, we're gonna play a little game, we're only playing to five and they're all great and they're only 25 and it was in the morning. I said, okay, the ball has to go back and forth across the net 100 times and on the 101st ball, the point starts well we won the twelve's and fourteen's and sixteen's, so I'm not a big believer in one shot tennis or just hit a winner, try to paint the line. I'm a big believer in groove your strokes. So you play tennis like a bird flies or like a fish swims and you never even consider missing. However,
Andy Zodin: okay, now I'm gonna jump on it. You said, I could,
Jack Broudy: I said, but
Andy Zodin: this 100 ball thing lends towards the mentality of a grinder, which you're also saying, I don't want to be a grinder, I want to be a baller man, I wanna, I wanna rip and I want to have these huge strokes. So where where's the, remember those two, where do those come together
Jack Broudy: Now? Remember you're talking about top 10 guys in the group of eight guys and there was a couple of girls there too and one got to the semis did very well. We did well boy, we own that sectionals. But um I mean,
Andy Zodin: I don't disagree with the game, I actually love it now. They don't have anybody at my club that could accomplish
Jack Broudy: that. But but these guys don't push the ball back. Remember these guys all had nice strokes, they at all, you know, they had all one big tournament. So it wasn't like they were stiffs and so they had good strokes and in fact, I remember once by john and steve Forman be john mccallum, e I think that's who steve beat in the semis. Um He was a good player, he was three in the country by john and they got to 96 Dijon missed. Well foreman was ready to kill him, kill him. But no, these guys didn't lob the ball or push it back of course they did in the beginning, but as the morning went on, remember it took three hours and only one of the four courts got to five Week. I said, well quit when one court gets to five and but they got their strokes so grooved that they could hit the ball in their sleep.
Andy Zodin: Yeah,
Jack Broudy: no, no, we don't push the ball. No, these guys were hitting nice balls. I wouldn't say they were crushing it, but nice three quarters pace and you know, Andy three quarters pacing the juniors wins the day.
Andy Zodin: Now let's, let's, let's go back to this whole conundrum of american tennis and, and, and the serve plus one and the big weapon thing being what kept our players out of the top 2030. But, but Phil Jackson actually went down to the Australian open once during stints with the Lakers, like he was with the Lakers, left him for awhile, came back and during that,
Jack Broudy: you
Andy Zodin: remember, So during the interim, he was a huge tennis fan. We went down to the Australian open, um, to kind of hang out with the bryan brothers as I understand it. And yeah, Philip former was down there working with, with bob and mike at the time and he was down there and in that particular Australian open, roger put anne asks whipping on an erotic, the likes of which, I mean in all of the times that Roger beat him, I don't think he ever beat him this ugly and uh,
Jack Broudy: I think his record was what, 14 and one. So it wasn't
Andy Zodin: Like it was 23 and something or
Jack Broudy: it wasn't much, it wasn't much of a rivalry
Andy Zodin: and, and and that's to Andy's own admission. But anyway, so Phil Jackson's down there and he's watching all this tennis and he calls Philip farmer after the tournament. He says phillipe, I think I figured something out about, about the american players particularly and erotic versus roger. Federer's approach to tennis and uh and Phillip farmers, like I can't believe I'm on the phone with Phil Jackson, first of all, and and second of all, like, yeah, I'm listening and he said, well this is something that I noticed when I worked with Michael and Scottie and and Shaq and Kobe and now phillips like, oh my God, this is gonna be good. And he said, he said, does Andy Roddick play chess that you know of in phillips, like not that I've ever seen, and he goes, what about Roger? And he goes, matter of fact, I think Roger, I think he does enjoy chess. And he goes, what about Andy? He said, does he does he play video games And Phillips response was yeah, on days off like four, hours a day. And he said, I think that's your problem. He said I looked out on that court with those two players and I saw a video game player versus a chess player and he said, I think if you can, if you can get that concept to permeate its way through american tennis then your whole immediate immediate gratification, a d d served plus one and the point fast, get your ranking up real fast. Everything that everybody wanted to happen real fast was a product of this video game generation. I just thought that was a very interesting thing for him to identify so quickly.
Jack Broudy: He's a great coach. I was big Phil Jackson fan except for when he went to florida, but I was a big Phil Jackson fan and he's got a good point. The only thing I have to say is, well you can say that it's like when brad Gilbert told Andy to go to net, well he forgot to give him a volley as soon as Andy started going to net, his ranking went from one for those four weeks 2 25 and I'm talking about in a period of two months he went from 1 to 25 because he took brad's advice, he went to net and he stepped and punched on his volleys and he didn't line up to 45 he was target practice for Nadal and Federer, he was just target practice. And so that was so I agree with what Phil says, but unless you can hit a better ball unless you have the formula and hit a better ball, you're just you know you're gonna lose it because I can tell you I saw Andy many times live once I was down with Pancho Segura when he was around and we had courtside seats and Andy was playing someone he lost. I can't remember who it was. It was someone good and I was at courtside and I can tell you both sides forehand and backhand. I am not kidding, he mishit, I mean you can hear the tambourine, he mis hit 50%. I was so decisive and I'm a big anti fan because I like his personality
Andy Zodin: a lot but
Jack Broudy: I was so disappointed because I thought to myself, jesus, you watched Fed and I've watched federal court side. Every ball is like a Stradivarius. It's like a bass big bass guitar, you know an electric bass guitar thunk thunk, big boom. And I tell you the difference of sound, the quality of hit just is not there. So you can say what you want about and oh yeah, if you could only play like a chess player forget it. He didn't have the quality of pure hit that roger had. I'm courtside and I can tell you it sounded like a ford pinto next to Federer's BMW souped up whole different world watches sitting courtside watching these two players. Another funny story is Agassi, he only commentated once and I really liked him a
Andy Zodin: lot of
Jack Broudy: I think he's great but he only commentated once and that was on NBC and it was like 2000 and it was the I think it was 2000 and uh oh four oh three it was the Wimbledon finals between Federer and Andy Roddick that went five sets remember that one
Andy Zodin: wasn't the one that Andy brick the backhand volley and
Jack Broudy: break the backhand volley in the second. Should never have gotten the net, should never think that was a little
Andy Zodin: later. But yeah, yeah, yeah, well he had that volley there. But anyway, that's
Jack Broudy: Yeah, anyway, Agassi was only in the booth, the commentator's booth for 234 minutes, that's it. But he had, you know, he just retired, oh you know, come on up. And so he came up and he said the greatest thing I've ever heard, which is just how I feel about certain players versus other players. They said what do you think about this match? He says, well he says I only have one bit of advice for Andy he says, I think if the ball goes back and forth over the net five times or more, he says if I were Andy I just I'd park it into the stands and start the next point and I thought that was the funniest thing and the most brilliant thing. He only commentated once and I said what a brilliant thing to say because he was right, if the point went over, if the point went over five or six rallies, he was gonna lose it anyway, so you might as well just park it in the stands and hit your big
Andy Zodin: serves. Well it's funny that you say that because last night the people that were on with Darren cahill will remember Darren talking about andre would literally he could have closed out the point on the eighth or ninth shot, but he'd rather consistently take it to the 14th or 15th shot by choice because as Darren turned it, it was an investment and taking away your legs. Andre, Andre had the mentality of that boxer that was just going to come in and put his head down and just beat on your gut and beat on your ribs and beat on your lungs and beat on you and just eventually you're like this and then he, you know, gives you the big haymaker across the head and and and knocks you out. But he had a game plan that he would literally give up opportunities to endpoints and so what he probably was referring to was the fact that then Roger would be doing the same thing to Andy that andre did to everybody. Yeah, right.
Jack Broudy: Yeah, I agree with, I agree with with Darren on that one. Absolutely. Um you know, once again, the grinders versus the ballers ballers, they like the match, they they like to hit the ball. Remember Stevie was this way foreman was this way Sammy was this way all those guys in the juniors, they would play serves that we're this far out, especially towards the end of the match, they didn't care they wanted to crush another ball and the grinders me, I mean I hate to admit it, but it's true, I was a grinder in the juniors and in college if that ball was this far out, my finger went up out and that's the difference. The guys that know they can crush the ball rope the ball they want to play. Okay so you know and and they want the points to last and they'll play out balls and they'll move you from side to side before they finally hit the final blow. Um So it's so psychologically different, you know, to be one of the two guys and like I said, I was always envious of the Ferdi to guns and the and I don't know which walls butch walls trade walkie, you know the guys that really enjoyed themselves out there were the bothers, the grinders, every match for us was complete stress. Well that
Andy Zodin: being said, you know, solly made a few bucks out there, you know there's still there's a place in the sport for the grinder because everybody just doesn't develop that. That unbelievable. So let's talk about it, let's talk about a training technique though. Something that these pros can take to the court tomorrow to implement a little of the Broudy system. What what what what can a couple of good takeaways b as we're coming around the corner on time here,
Jack Broudy: I would encourage them to go visit the site for starters but it doesn't cost any money to go visit
Andy Zodin: Broudy.
Jack Broudy: Tennis Broudy tennis dot com. B. R. O. U. D. Y. That's the only difference and uh that I would encourage them to do. If any of them are interested. I'll give them a free, you know, week and I thought about this before we spoke, any of your guys are interested. They can have a free week and look at all the courses and see how different we are. You know, we talk about the coil and and unfurling the coil, we don't talk about, you know, do this with your arm and do that with your arms. So they're welcome to come in. If they're U. S. P. T. A I'll give them a free week. The book is free. So you can go online and read the book. It gives you the fundamentals and their basic one is line up the 45 degree angle I guarantee tomorrow. If if some of these bros out there just tell their students, hey, you see the net the net post line up everything to that net, post on this side and then on this side and their players will play 20% better immediately. I mean that one fundamental makes everyone play better because you line up the shot. Uh and and so many players just don't line up that people talk about footwork. The full works really. That's the tail wagging the dog. Is that your feet aren't your core, right? Your core is your core. So if you line up your core whether you're open or closed stance. Serena used to do it very Ugly. I mean she would face the net but she lined up but she would line up her core right? You can see the line up her core at the 45 and she'd reach out there but it looked painful where Roger just would pick up his feet a little bit line up to 45 and it looked much more relaxed but just lining up the ball better will make your players you know everyone 20% better. Just is
Andy Zodin: lining up the ball better, Jack to some extent, even though the footwork isn't necessarily as as as critical as as some people make it out to be. But is it a is it a function of creating in my mind's eye? I am seeing a little bit more distance between the body and the ball because it sounds like you're you're going from inside to out with the release, which is something that I am very big on. So I talked about that inside out release which I think My verb it kind of hopefully does translate into somewhat of a 40
Jack Broudy: five. That's true, it's very true. You're right. That's one of many things about the 45. Remember it was mathematics that I learned this 45. Think about an archer. Think about a rifleman, don't they poise their body at the 45 when they isn't every isn't every weapon designed. So your body is at the 45 degree angle. So one eye is closer, it gives you a better depth perception. Um animals that I go straight or bug out always get hit by cars, but the predators, their eyes go in at the 45 degree angle. Also you can disguise a shot better at the 45 at the 45 degree angle with the smallest of movement of my hand. I can go down the line across court. If you take the ball late, you can only go down the line and if you take it early, you can only go in the net wider cross court. But at the 45 you can make the most finite changes. That's why I said earlier. Andy Roddick was a target. He'd come in, you know, barreling into net and roger would line up the shot. You couldn't tell where it was going until he made contact and he would watch Andy's head or he watched his body move just a little bit one way and then at the last second he turned his hand just a little bit And go down the line instead across court. So at the 45 the disguise is better. Your your view of the ball is much more like a predator and less like prey. And you're correct. You do hit the inside of the ball better and and the ball sinks deeper into your strings. There's there's a million reasons that the 45 is so important
Andy Zodin: in your, you know what you're describing as far as being able to hold that ball and, and wait out the net player. You know, obviously we saw a lot of that with board. He he was the ultimate, hold it till the last second counterpuncher guy and so he did a brilliant job with that. So, so far, I think that setting up this 45 really adhering to it, which I think whether whether we're doing it in such specific terms or not, I think a lot of us probably, I mean, I I kind of like heartened to find out, I think I'm doing that already kind of thing to a certain
Jack Broudy: extent, But but why not be, but why not? My, my theory is why not be specific four kids actually something to hold onto. Oh yeah, I line up my 45,
Andy Zodin: so there's that, but also Jack, I love the getting a kid or an adult or whoever ready for a tournament by playing that um go to 100 before the point starts. Do you have any do you have any of those? Any more of those that were like in your in your pre your pre sectional camps that were some games and maybe
Jack Broudy: man, when I was young, I was a crazy coach, I wanted to win. So bad. Yeah, that was my big one. That's the one that I always remember, but no, we do these drills like bump up and across where have you and I are up at net, I bumped the volley up and I hit it back to you and you bump it up and you hit it back to me, you can only take it, you can only take it at the 45. So it locks you in on your volley, you see if you take it late, it goes behind you, you take it early, it goes over the net, but if you want the ball to bump straight up in the air, you have to line up the 45. So we do things like that, we warm up with two hands On both sides because same thing, if you have two hands and you're late, you're handcuffed if you're early, you can't get the ball over the net, no power. So it forces you to make contact right at the 45. So we do a lot of drills that enforce The 45° angle and then of course there's a continuity of the hips because I think the great players don't have any hitches, I don't believe in loading up and all that stuff they say once again, Andy Roddick was the king of loading up and when I saw him he mis hit 50% of his balls. I mean 50 I I was, I was so disappointed when I left indian wells because I really liked him a lot and I just thought wow that ball does not sound good coming off his strings except around the serve boy, he had a perfect serve. Um, so yeah, we do a lot of drills like that so you learn to keep your hips continuous rather than stopping somewhere in the stroke and having a hitch. And once again, not only does it hit hurt your game, your strokes, but it crushes you under pressure right? As soon as you stop, that's the, that's the end, you know? So
Andy Zodin: it sounds like there's um a level of call it structured relaxation that goes into what you're talking about here. So there's organization to the game, there's organization to the stroke production, but ultimately there's relaxation like the kid that you talked about that kept saving match points by hitting winners. You know, like I wish we could all do that, but you, you have to have a level of trust in that process.
Jack Broudy: And if you're able to
Andy Zodin: blend those two things that, that structured relaxation, it
Jack Broudy: sounds like you're kind of hitting the mark. I've never heard it put better. That's really,
Andy Zodin: No,
Jack Broudy: no, I mean that's that's really, I mean we don't know each other that well. We played tennis one day and we've chatted a few times. I like, I like you personally, but that is very astute and I really liked that term. I hope I can get a recording this, so I can remember some of that, but you're right, it's, it's, it's like how do you play, looking like you're on the edge. Like Agassi used to, but being in complete control. But that's that's how I, you know, I don't know about other people. That's how I wanted to play. I wanted to look like I was whippy wet noodle having a ball and really loosey goosey but still never missing. And and that is exactly what it is. It's a formula. It's it's it's actually a formula on on how to flow. Right? Like I said, I read other people and they were very fluffy when a kid, you know, just smoke a fatty and then go play tennis, you'll be fine. You know,
Andy Zodin: neither of us have ever done that.
Jack Broudy: No, never.
Andy Zodin: I did get a question from one of our board members, Marc Faber who says, you know, okay, so archery and shooters are stationary when firing and they're not receiving anything as your target is stationary is the difference there than the fact that that is where some footwork comes in
Jack Broudy: and no brilliant question, brilliant question. Think about it. Have uh, what's his name were
Andy Zodin: in favor
Jack Broudy: Warren think about a shortstop. Mark,
Andy Zodin: Mark,
Jack Broudy: Mark, Mark, think about a shortstop. I played little League before I played tennis and I was a second baseman and an outfielder because you know why because I couldn't catch and throw in the same motion. And the best athlete on every baseball team is always the shortstop because he's the only guy he catches the ball at the 45 while his hips are in motion And then they stay in motion and he throws? So he's got that quick flick. But if you watch any shortstop, they lock in the 45 and their hips never stop and they catch and throw in the same
Andy Zodin: motion. Okay,
Jack Broudy: So yeah, when you catch the ball, you catch it at the 45. And when you release it, like when a picture, I work with the Padres a little bit, some of their pictures down in san Diego and they love the boards, all of them. And they said this 45 degree angle is what I do naturally, but I like knowing about it kind of what kind of what the bryan brothers told me. They said, well we do this stuff naturally, but it's nice to know what it is we do. So we can replicate it. So that was the only thing I can say these natural born athletes, these natural athletes, they haven't an intuition about what it is that we're talking about here today. So that's a great question. But yeah, you catch the ball at the 45 and you release
Andy Zodin: and if you've got any other questions out there guys, we've got another few minutes here, um
Jack Broudy: you
Andy Zodin: know, as far as, as far as players that get into slumps and it's like they're adhering to this stroke production advice, but they're having a crisis of confidence. What would be some of the things that you might try to instill in their mind. Is there any anything for that in your
Jack Broudy: we we you know, that's that's the title. It's a it's a chapter in my book and you don't have bad days, foreman, Sammy Stevie, whatever tournament they entered, they did what they were supposed to, they got to the semis, they got to the finals, they want it. I mean, it was not
Andy Zodin: everybody does, Right, Okay.
Jack Broudy: That's the whole thing when you when you have a system, I mean, an intellectual system, um so many people play by feel that's my thing about the women, I think that they feel great one tournament, but then they lose that feel when you have it intellectually and you have the feel, when you lose it, you can go intellectual and say, okay, come on, man, lock in your 45 you're obviously facing the net stuff like that. So it's something you can rely on under pressure is real true fundamentals that are based in mathematics. I mean, they're not just, I I think I'll just hit the ball out in front, you know, which is kind of nebulous or I think I'll take it off my left foot somewhere. No, I'm gonna lock in my 45 line it up and I'm gonna make sure, you know, that I don't pull my left hand off and open up too early. I'm gonna do what Djokovic does and pull this left hand in and lock into it. So that's the really beauty of it is you don't have too many bad days because if you don't have your feel that day you go to your intellect, which I don't think a lot of players can do, who just grind it out 1000 balls a day when they lose their feel like me, when I was a junior, I couldn't take a day off because if I took a day off, I was worried that I would lose my field and that's a horrible way to go through the juniors, horrible or just being a tennis player. It's a terrible way to go through it. But when, you know something so well, like, you know, two times two is four, I know that I can stand on the top of the building and you can point a gun at my head and I'll still say four and I'll be okay. I think when you have a real system, you do develop that faith. And like I said, when the faith is gone, you can go to the intellect,
Andy Zodin: one of the, one of one of our board members, marshall Carpenter, the director of tennis, over at Cherry Hills, uh what a politically correct way to ask a question. He says, how would you explain this intellectual approach to a player who might not be at the top of the intellectual ladder.
Jack Broudy: It's a great question
Andy Zodin: and well stated not to offend.
Jack Broudy: Yeah. And I live near Cherry Creek now,
Andy Zodin: Cherry
Jack Broudy: Hills, Yeah, I played there once, I've been playing here and there with some guys. So I'd like to meet some of these guys. That's a great question. You're right, he's right. Sometimes you just get to people that go, just hit me 1000 balls well that they don't really come to me, I'm a little too expensive for that. So they don't come to me anyway. I get a lot of kids that are just about to quit the game, you know, how that happens more often in the juniors than anything else kids are about to quit and I saved them and, and so I really feel really as good as I feel about my boys and girls that played great ball and are on the tour today, I think I feel even better about the kids that were not athletic or overweight, but really smart and this and that and they enjoy tennis so much. You know, they played high school, someone played college and other pros dismissed them and they were in the middle of slumps. Um, but he's right. There are some people that they don't want to hear anything they don't want, you know, and there's not much you can do with them, but all three of these fundamentals are pretty simple. I mean teaching someone the 45 degree angle, all you have to do is look at the tennis court behind me, right? And you see what a 90 degree angle is. So you say to your six year old will split that in half And they just draw a line and go, well that's the 45. So I mean I get five year olds to understand the 45 so it's a great point and I love the way you put it
Andy Zodin: well and and it may be that he asked that question because maybe Marshall was that kid, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't like at the top of the intellectual food chain. Now he
Jack Broudy: knows I'm joking,
Andy Zodin: Marshall, I love
Jack Broudy: you. I'm not touching that. I don't know Marshall and I still want to do you still want to be pals with
Andy Zodin: he and I are the best of buds and he knows that the more I tease him, the more I like him. But
Jack Broudy: the question
Andy Zodin: now and he's actually just giving me a little sign of of um you know what I can do with that. But but anyway, well listen Jack, we're coming up against it. Is there anything that you want to sort of Just an overall you wanted with that you'd like to close with? I mean you're closing out the conference, this is it, this is the 20 to the 22 Intermountain divisional conference coming to an end here. So
Jack Broudy: okay, my last thing would be, I would love to meet a lot of these guys. Um I know the game has been taught for a lifetime since you and I were kids and before by tips
Andy Zodin: period
Jack Broudy: and I'm telling you this system, this system based on projective geometry, mathematics, a bunch of stuff I would never want to bore people with. Um, it had nothing to do with tennis, it's a system, it's an actual closed system so you can see why some tips were decent in the past, right? You know, do this, get, get your racket back early, that's not a good tip. And we all kind of realized that um, this, it really is a whole different world. This is a whole different world from just tips, which puts the onus on your student here, try this, try stepping in, that's all they ever say pro and not not all, but mostly that's what they say is they give you a tip and then they say, well you give it a shot and on, if it didn't work, you didn't hit enough balls. This puts the onus on the instructor, it puts it on me. And I'm saying this system, let's line up to 45 if I have to put you on a board, I put you on a board, let you use a cobra, which is a new product of mine, which shows the sine wave and how you precisely have to lay the racket head back to make contact perfectly with the ball, not just lay your head back or drag and lag, you know, a lot of people are throwing tips out there these days about the shoulders lead the stroke. These are just tips. So that's my biggest thing is let's say, I want to elevate the teaching, the education of tennis. So it grows and when people realized that, oh my God, I'm a smart person. So if I just do this system, it'll work for me. That grows the game when you give guys, you know, umpteen tips on forehands and backhands and everything's different. Everything is the same here, whether I'm teaching you to serve, its still making contact at the 45 or the backhand and it's still continuous motion in the hips, creating a sine wave. So you have one philosophy for every stroke. So you don't have to just practice high forehands on the service line and try and piece together your gain now instead you sort of own your game, you know it. So whatever shot comes up, you're in pretty good shape.
Andy Zodin: He is Jack Broudy and he has definitely got a unique system, a unique presentation and way to communicate it. And he assures us that this was not born of the days of Woodstock. He's not old enough for that to be the case, but it is, it is
Jack Broudy: drinking drinking water drinking water.
Andy Zodin: I've hit with you, Jack and I know how well you hit the ball and I see what you're talking about. So I really appreciate it, very entertaining, very thought provoking stuff, extremely intriguing and a great way for us to close out the conference. I want to thank all of you for.
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